Londo111, I do find the Preterist views facinating. I hope you didn't get the idea that I was pooping on your beliefs, and saying that they were necessarily wrong. I was just stating why I don't personally lean that way. But, as with everything I THINK I know, I could be very wrong. God knows I've been wrong plenty of times in the past. :-)
Christ Alone
JoinedPosts by Christ Alone
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Post 666: Revelation--Its Grand Climax in 70 AD
by Londo111 inrevelation is the most misunderstood and misused book of the bible.
the branch davidians and other cults used revelation with deadly results.
fundamentalists have used it to prognosticate a future where the antichrist and his one world government mark people with microchips or barcodes during a seven year tribulation.
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Post 666: Revelation--Its Grand Climax in 70 AD
by Londo111 inrevelation is the most misunderstood and misused book of the bible.
the branch davidians and other cults used revelation with deadly results.
fundamentalists have used it to prognosticate a future where the antichrist and his one world government mark people with microchips or barcodes during a seven year tribulation.
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Christ Alone
Sab, you are correct that Revelation does not use the term "Anti-Christ". The term is taken from various parts of Johns epistles. 1Jo 2:18 is one of the verses which says: Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 2Thess 2:3-12 also seems to describe a future man that will be at the center of many events.
This would be a long Leolai type post if I was to go into a full discussion of the AntiChrist and why one of the beasts in Revelation seems to apply to a single person that could be identified as a singluar antichrist. Of course, the Bible does speak of many antichrists, however in Revelation there seems to be a single individual at the center of many of the events. As you read through various "end time" passages in various parts of the Bible, a singluar figure seems to imerge. I am by no means hard headed about it, but it seems to make sense to me, especially when I read Revelation in a single sitting that there would be a single man that would be behind many of the events related in Revelation.
Various parts of the Bible seem to refer to the same individual, but uses different terms. Paul uses the term "Man of Lawlessness". Daniel 7 and Zech 11 call him the little horn and the worthless shepherd. Revelation 13 calls him a beast. Whether you believe that these refer to the future singular antichrist is up to you. Revelation 13 relates several events that would be fulfilled by this Beast, whose power was given to him by the Devil. "And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. And I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast," (Rev 13:2,3) .
In regards to who created the beasts, all governments exist because God allows it. Contrary to Watchtower teaching, the fact that they exist and rule is not a bad thing. The harm comes when people worship them and they attack God and His people. That is when God steps in. But the very fact of their existance doesn't make them evil. So I don't see a problem with the statement that God put these powers in place.
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YouTube video: Five Stupid Things About Jehovah's Witnesses
by cedars ingreat video.
this is how we are viewed by outsiders.
there's no fooling some people!.
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Christ Alone
Awesome...
Cults are stupid!
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Post 666: Revelation--Its Grand Climax in 70 AD
by Londo111 inrevelation is the most misunderstood and misused book of the bible.
the branch davidians and other cults used revelation with deadly results.
fundamentalists have used it to prognosticate a future where the antichrist and his one world government mark people with microchips or barcodes during a seven year tribulation.
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Christ Alone
Along the same lines, I found this article online that shows how Prince Charles is the anti-christ. You really can make the Bible apply to anything if you throw out the rules of hermeneutics.
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/calculate_the_number.htm
The Bible tells us to "Calculate the number of the Beast, for the number is that of a man, and his number is 666".
If you don't know how the Hebrew gematria system of math works, here is an outline. The values 1-9 are assigned to the first 9 letters of the alphabet, 10-90 for the next 9 letters, and 100-400 for the last four letters, (they only have 22 characters in the alphabet.) Using this system of math, and applying it to the first 22 characters of the English alphabet, (the last 4 letters equate to zero), we can calculate names in English just as you can calculate names in Hebrew.
There is a man on the world scene whose name and title calculates to 666 in both Hebrew and English. He doesn't fit the image of a strong charismatic leader, and most of us think of him as "weak". He is… Prince Charles of Wales.
He was born in 1948, the year Israel became a nation. ( Interestingly, the Prophet Daniel refers to the Antichrist, in Dan. 9:26, as a Prince of the people who destroyed the Temple. He is a Prince, through his father's lineage, of the same people who destroyed the Temple in 70 AD-the Romans. He has a lineage chart through his mother's side which shows him to be the "Son of David"-and he is not a Jew. There was a documentary on Israeli television about Prince Charles which introduced his lineage chart to the Jewish people. Now all he needs to do is help the Jews get access to the Temple Mount, and he will have met the test of the true Messiah, as taught by the Rabbis.)
The Bible refers to the Antichrist as a "despicable person" who has not yet received a kingship. Prince Charles is not well respected by his own people (even more so after the Diana 'car crash'). He has been through many messy public scandals, and there have been rumours of homosexuality, adultery (proven), occult practices and spiritual worship-and he has not yet received his kingship!
When the Book of Revelation told us to, "Calculate the number of the Beast, for the number is that of a man and his number is 666", it literally gave us his name. Onomastics is the study of names. Any onomastics book will show that Charles means "man". It means "man" or "manly". The words "Charles" and "man" can be used interchangeably in that verse without affecting the meaning at all. That verse literally reads, "...for the number is that of a Charles..."
Riddle of the Seven Kings, (the 3rd riddle): In the Book of Revelation, Chapter 17, Verses 10-11, it says, "There are seven kings. Five were, one is and one is to be. The Beast is the eighth and of the seven." There were seven emperors of the Holy Roman Empire named Charles, (check the World Book Encyclopaedia). Prince Charles' lineage chart shows that he is descended, through his father, from the fifth emperor of the Holy Roman Empire named Charles, of the House of Hapsburg. Prince Charles is the eighth and, (by his lineage), he is also of the seventh.
Prince Charles' coat of arms and crest was designed for him by the British College of Heraldry, using a system of guidelines over 500 years old. It contains all the Biblical symbols of the Antichrist. It has a dog supported by a roaring lion and a unicorn, (called a wild beast with a straight horn, or a wild oxen). Psalms 22:19-21 describes these animals, with a prayer for deliverance. The composite beast of Revelation 13:2, with the head of a lion, body of a leopard and feet of a bear is symbolic for other people--but not for Prince Charles. It is on his Coat of Arms. It represents the emperors of the Holy Roman Empire. These are the animal symbols for France, the leopard; Germany, the Bear; and England, the lion. These nations represented the western arm of the Holy Roman Empire.
That verse also says, "And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority." The dragon is "symbolic" to others, but not to Prince Charles. He has a red dragon on his coat of arms. It comes from the flag of Wales, and it is in his title, Prince of Wales, that Charles is heir-apparent to the throne of Great Britain.
At his coronation, he sat on a chair with a large red dragon emblazoned on it. During the ceremony, his mother said, "This dragon gives you your power, your throne and your authority." His response to her was, "I am now your Leige-man, and worthy of your earthly worship." Leige is an old English word meaning "Lord". "I am now your Lord-man, and worthy of your earthly worship."
By the way, Prince Charles Coat of Arms has another symbol--The Order of the Garter. The Order of the Garter is the parent organization over Free Masonry, world-wide. When a man becomes a 33rd Degree Mason, he swears allegiance to that organization, and thereby to Prince Charles.
Prince Charles may seem like a wimp, and lacking charisma. He is however quite athletic, an expert horseman, a qualified jet fighter pilot in the Royal Air Force, a qualified helicopter pilot in the Royal Navy, and a senior military officer in all three branches of service.
Also, MONDEX International, the premiere cashless smartcard system, is set for rapid global implementation. Founded in 1993 by NATWEST (personal bank of the royal family) and 51% owned by MASTERCARD it is now the decided victor of the electronic cash systems. The first countries to employ MONDEX nationwide by 1998 are the UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Israel, Hong Kong, China, Indonesia, Macau, Malaysia, Philippines, Singapore, Thailand, India, Taiwan and Sri Lanka. Watch in the coming weeks for announcements on the US and the European Union. "This is the final stage in becoming a global reality," said Robin O'Kelly of Mondex International. "With MasterCard's backing, there's nothing to stop Mondex now from becoming the global standard." Note: MON-DEX is a compound of two words, monetary and dexter. Webster's defines these as {monetary - pertaining to money} {dexter- belonging to or on the right hand}.It also always seems that the devil or dark characters like Dracula often appear or are symbolized in books and films as an aristocratic person.
I also remember a newspaper article a couple of years ago when a young man tried to "assassinate" Prince Charles. He had a fake gun and ran on to the platform where Prince Charles was speaking and aimed a gun at him - Prince Charles just stood there in front of him and did not flinch.
After that incident he was interviewed and asked how he managed to stand there and not move or duck out of the way… He said "It was from years of breeding." I never quite understood what he meant until now. -
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Post 666: Revelation--Its Grand Climax in 70 AD
by Londo111 inrevelation is the most misunderstood and misused book of the bible.
the branch davidians and other cults used revelation with deadly results.
fundamentalists have used it to prognosticate a future where the antichrist and his one world government mark people with microchips or barcodes during a seven year tribulation.
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Christ Alone
So Londo111, are you a full preterist? Do you believe that Jesus second coming happened in 70 AD? Remember that the resurrection was to happen before Christ's return. (1Thes 4:15-17)
2Peter 3:1-13 says that the coming of Christ happens with the end of the heavens and the earth. When did this happen?
Paul says in 1Cor 15:26 that Christ reigns until the last enemy, death, is destroyed. Did this also happen in 70 AD?
Do you believe that Armageddon happened in 70 AD? The problem with this, if you do, is that Rev 16:12 says that at the time of Armageddon, the Great River Euphrates will be dried up to make way for the Kings of the East to come down against Israel for the Battle of Armageddon (verse 16). Another problem is that if you apply this to Rome, Rome attacked from the West, not the East.
In regards to Nero being the symbolic 666, here is why I can't subscribe to that. The problem is that many other End Times prophecies were not fulfilled in the times of Nero, nor have they been since. For example, instead of having the anti-Christ stand in the Temple proclaiming he’s God for the Abomination of Desolation as in 2 Thes 2:4 and Daniel 9:27 , Preterism claims that when Rome affixed a large model of the Roman Eagle to the wall just outside the main gate of the Temple this prophecy was fulfilled.
Also, Revelation 13 gives us alot of actions that the anti-crhist or 666 would do in which Nero cannot even remotely be credited with.
1. Nero did not force everyone to worship the Satan
2. Nero did not force Rome to receive the mark of the beast in order to buy or sell
3. Nero did not invade the temple in Jerusalem, declare himself as god, and force all of Israel to worship him as the anti-christ will do (Rev 13, Dan 9:25)
4. Nero did not receive a mortal wound, die, and get resurrected from the dead (Rev 13)
5. Nero did not make a seven year peace treaty with Israel and then break it after 3.5 years (Rev 13)
6. Nero did not lead a global crusade against Christianity as the anti-christ will do (Rev 13:7) Nero's campaign was in Rome alone
Anyway, if you read about the Anti-Christ in Revelation (particularly chapter 13), you have to make some pretty wild stretches to apply it to Nero.
Besides this fact, Preterism does not allow one to use hermeneutics to interpret the Bible. It does, largely, what the Watchtower does. It spiritualizes things that should be plain, and allows the interpreter to apply the biblical passage to anything they can make fit.
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Jesus was an Angel and used God's name
by Christ Alone ininteresting stuff in the november wt.
note this dishonest quote:.
during his ministry, jesus.
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Christ Alone
Elephant, you are trying to be sly in your responses, and they just don't fly. I showed you how Hebrews flatly states that Jesus is not an angel. Yet your response was, but JWs believe he is an angel. Yeah so? Moonies believe Sun Myung Moon was the Messiah. Doesn't make it true. Nor accurate.
The whole point is that JWs do NOT need scriptural proof of ANYTHING. They believe that as long as they follow the Watchtower, they will be saved. That's it. So if they WT says that Michael is Jesus, they believe it. If the Watchtower says that Jesus used the name "Jehovah", they believe it. If the Watchtower says that the 2+2=7, they will believe it. And you are case and point. You are trying to distance yourself and talk as if you are a third party by calling JWs "they" and "them". But we all know that you are one of them.
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They will be DFing me soon for apostasy...
by RayPublisher inwell i figured i should give you all an update.
they will be dfing me soon for apostasy.
it is not a huge surprise and i am not afraid nor "shaking in my boots", however i will admit it is stressful right now.
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Christ Alone
Elephant, I have NEVER seen someone that was able to walk away from the religion with no hassle. If you fade the elders will continue to visit to "encourage" you. This is, among other things, to see of you will come back to the mind control, or see if you have sinned yet, meriting a df ing. Or You can tell the elders what you disagree with and they will df you. There are not any other options. At least ray publisher is standing up for what he believes in. Something cowardly jws could learn from.
Regardless, you know that there is no such thing as quietly leaving. If you leave and decide to do something like celebrate a birthday, they will df you and completely destroy your ties to your jw family.
It really makes me sick when I hear a jw say that nonsense.
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Jesus was an Angel and used God's name
by Christ Alone ininteresting stuff in the november wt.
note this dishonest quote:.
during his ministry, jesus.
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Christ Alone
And no, Elephant, my argument wasn't just with the picture. They were obviously trying to make their point that before his birth, Jesus existed as Michael the archangel. It was their attempt to push the idea that Jesus is Michael. Interestingly, I'd you tell a JW that Jesus is also Jehovah, they will say that doesn't make sense. But If you say that Jesus is also Michael, they say, yes that makes sense. No logic for jws. Just mindless belief of the watchtower.
I guarantee that if "new light" comes out in the next watchtower that Jesus is NOT Michael, then jws will fight just as hard to prove to people that he is not michael. This in itself shows that they do not have beliefs based on their knowledge of the bible, but it is only based on believing what they are told to believe by the watchtower. You, elephant, are a perfect example of this, and I hope you one day come to that realization and learn to get past the mind control that the watchtower has over you.
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Jesus was an Angel and used God's name
by Christ Alone ininteresting stuff in the november wt.
note this dishonest quote:.
during his ministry, jesus.
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Christ Alone
Elephant, my point was that
1. Nowhere in the bible was Jesus ever called an angel. In fact just the opposite. Hebrews 1:4 says that Jesus is greater than angels and vs 6 states that all the angels are to worship Jesus. Beyond that I was pointing out that there is no scriptural support that Jesus has the wings of an angel.
2. My point about Jesus name vs the mistranslated name "Jehovah" is this: the bible says that Jesus name is above ALL other names. You, as a jw Elephant, claim that you ONLY believe what the bible teaches and you do not go beyond what is written. I am merely pointing out that this is proof of dishonesty and going beyond what the bible says. Nowhere is there any SHRED of proof that Jesus nor any other OT writer EVER use the name Jehovah.
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Jesus was an Angel and used God's name
by Christ Alone ininteresting stuff in the november wt.
note this dishonest quote:.
during his ministry, jesus.
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Christ Alone
I think you guys misunderstood me. I'm not saying Jesus was an angel or used the name Jehovah. I was saying that the wt was wrong in making those claims. Also it's funny that you corrected me on saying every "other" name. That was a mistake. My jw upbringing took over and I misquoted the scripture.